Image of Melissa Frew talking to Reuben Hall on the Moving Digital Health podcast

Our guest this episode was Melissa Frew, a Senior Service Designer with Healthcare Human Factors. Melissa joined Reuben Hall to discuss how service design (and human-centered design) can have a major impact in designing and improving services in the healthcare industry.

“We come in as designers and we bring in this sort of human-centered lens and we work with people to talk to patients, talk to providers, really understand what the current state experience is, and then we co-design and collaboratively develop what that solution should look like.” Melissa Frew on the Healthcare Human Factors service design method.

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Read Transcript:

Reuben (00:06.21)
Welcome to the MindSea podcast series, Moving Digital Health. Our guest today is Melissa Frew, Senior Service Designer for Healthcare Human Factors, Healthcare Experience Advocate and Researcher. Thanks for joining us today, Melissa.

Melissa Frew (00:21.25)
Thanks for having me.

Reuben (00:23.338)
Maybe you could start by telling us a bit about your background.

Melissa Frew (00:27.722)
Yeah, so I came to be a healthcare designer in a very roundabout kind of route. I started out my life actually as my creative life, my professional life, as a painter and eventually transitioned into graphic design. And it was through that I then started getting very interested in user experience design and looking at digital tools and how we can make them more useful for people.

And then as happens with a lot of people, it seems, in healthcare, I had my own healthcare experience, and that led me to really start looking at healthcare and the tools that are used, or the lack of digital tools that were used, and really starting to think about how could I bring my skill set to healthcare, and really start to make an impact in a place that really needed some help. So I started really looking, shifting my gaze to healthcare.

My first role in healthcare was as a user experience designer at OpenLab, which is a design group here at UHN. And then from there…

That sort of opened me up to really looking at, you know, we have these tools in healthcare, but we really work in this sort of siloed world where there’s all of these different pieces that are happening and none of them are connected. And that really got me thinking. And so I pursued a master’s in design for health, which opened my mind to this idea of service and system design and really thinking about how we can go beyond just the assets that we’re making and start to think about how.

we can really think about our healthcare system as a system because really what we’re dealing with now is something that was never designed. It just sort of evolved over time as people were putting band-aids on to problems. And so from that, I transitioned to my role here at Healthcare Human Factors where we really take a human-centered, designed, human-factors approach to the work we do where we like to

Melissa Frew (02:39.384)
their experiences are and think about, you know, there’s digital solutions, but where are those digital solutions sitting in a service and how can we start to use these digital solutions to bring the pieces together and start to design a more integrated system for people to function in. So that’s sort of a long-winded way of saying how I got where I am.

Reuben (03:03.274)
Yeah, you mentioned your own healthcare experience. Was it a negative experience? Did you get that feeling like, hey, this could be a lot better? And that designer’s curse where you’re just constantly analyzing and critiquing things and how they could be designed or improved.

Melissa Frew (03:23.946)
So yeah, I think what I would say is, it wasn’t a negative experience. I was very grateful for the care I received. I think I got excellent care, but I had to advocate really hard for myself. And I didn’t have a lot of knowledge about the healthcare system. And…

And so I really had to like learn as I was going through it and try and figure out what I should be asking for and what I was allowed to ask for. And so there was a lot of work on my part. And then, you know, it was the sort of early days of these patient portals and the idea that I had access to this, but it was kind of awful, the experience of going in there and trying to find information, I’d say it hasn’t really progressed very far, um, in the time since I’ve been doing this work, but it is getting, you know, incrementally better.

And so it just made me feel that there’s got to be a better way. There’s got to be a better way for us to use these digital tools. I mean, I was really drawn into healthcare because of the digital tools and the lack of connection and the lack of use of them. And it sort of blossomed from there since I’ve been doing this work.

I just kept feeling like there must be something better. There must be a better way for us to capitalize on this digital doorway that’s opening for us and really bring it in to health care in a way that really supports patients so that they can be a little bit more involved in their care, but also providers to be able to communicate with them better. It just felt like there was a better way.

Reuben (05:03.946)
Yeah, and I hear the same thing from physicians who are working with these tools and, you know, seeing the gaps and, you know, how they could be better for their own use and looking to, you know, to innovate with the system there. And of course, from the patient side as well, they’re like, you know, I can, you know, do all these things easily on my banking website or, you know, shopping or whatever. How come it’s so hard when it comes to healthcare?

you know, so user friendly.

Melissa Frew (05:36.29)
Mm-hmm. Well, and often I find, you know, one of the things that really drew me into this was…

Healthcare just felt like it was decades behind when it came to digital tools and how they were being utilized. And I just kept thinking, well, there’s got to be a way to bring them into the 20th century, let alone the 21st. And I think as I’ve worked in healthcare, I’ve realized I’ve done a lot of research around how these, you know, healthcare records and things like that were developed. That was part of the work that I did when I was in doing my masters. And what it really led me to understand.

is there is this massive system that within which our healthcare functions and because of that it really limits how things move forward and you have to function within that if you’re going to make changes you have to try and figure out what are the systemic factors that are impacting this situation and really try to go okay what are the little nudges I can make what are the little changes I can make to move this forward

You know, in Canada and Ontario, we’re in this publicly funded public health care system and we really need to think about how we function within that framework.

Reuben (06:51.938)
Yeah, you need to understand the context of the system to understand how to make change. And there is that realization that, oh, now I understand why this is so hard, why change is so hard because of all the factors involved. And of course, it’s important to have…

Reuben (07:16.082)
you know, more burden of proof that something works before just rolling it out. This is people’s health you’re dealing with. So, you know, the bar has to be high for any, you know, digital system or, or patient support to, to actually, you know, make it into a live environment. And I think some people get frustrated with that and, but we all realize for that change to happen, we have to keep pushing.

Reuben (07:44.558)
keep moving it forward, like you say, one nunch at a time. And we all see the potential of where we can get. And it’s just that sustained effort by a whole bunch of people working together.

Melissa Frew (07:56.83)
Yeah, and I think that’s a really good point. There are so many people that are actually really looking forward. They’re looking to change. They’re looking to see what options there are. And I think it took me a little bit of time when I first started, dipped my foot into this sort of healthcare space to realize how many people are actually really pushing for change. It’s just…

it’s a bit of a beast. And so you really have to think about how do you make those little moves in this space?

Reuben (08:29.189)
Maybe you could tell us about a project that you had a chance to work on that you feel made a big impact.

Melissa Frew (08:36.958)
So one of the challenges I would say with the work that I do, particularly now that I’m at Healthcare Human Factors, is we work a lot with people in terms of thinking about…

So we work as a consultancy. So we come in as designers and we bring in this sort of human-centered lens and we work with people to, you know, talk to patients, talk to providers, really understand what the current state experience is, and then we co-design and collaboratively develop what that solution should look like. We take what people share with us and formulate really succinct and complex, succinct but also

also complex graphic sort of maps and images to help people understand what these abstract concepts really could look like. But then we kind of have to hand it off. A lot of the times, most of the times we have to hand this off and say, okay, now you go forth and implement. It’s very rare that I get to be around to watch the implementation and see what actually happens. We give recommendations, we give them next steps, but then a lot of the times it really is not.

Melissa Frew (09:48.062)
something that I’m involved in to see what actually happens and whether it’s successful. But there’s a lot of work that I do that the thread sort of follows through the projects, which is really nice. I’ve done a lot of work in the aging space in trying to think about how do we support people to transition from hospital back to home or to…

Melissa Frew (10:16.078)
long-term care, losing my words, or how do we support people to stay safely in home with technology. There was a project I worked on with Jake from Toronto Grace, he’s the CEO there. He is a very forward-thinking person and we worked on a project where we looked at how could we develop a model of care that supported people that were basically stuck in hospital, that were living with frail.

and how could we support them to actually get back home with technology in the home. And so he has a whole suite of tools that they use in their programs to support people in the home that look at technology being immersed in the home. So maybe tracking to see if somebody’s wandering, medication delivery.

a lot of different tools around safety in the home that’s supported by technology. But what we looked at was, okay, but what’s the barrier to get the person home? So how could we think about getting someone out of the hospital and into the home? And a lot of that involved relationships and communication and a little bit of an extension of… So Toronto Grace is a rehab hospital, so it was an extension of that rehab.

Often there’s a discharge and someone goes home, but it’s how can we extend that discharge period a little bit so there’s a little bit more of a hands-on moment as somebody transitions home. So they’re not just dropped off in their home with all of these technologies, but there’s someone to make sure that they’re set up, that things are in place, that they’re functioning well, then they can discharge them into this other program. But there’s that sort of.

It’s like this nebulous period between leaving the hospital and going home. And I find that in a lot of our work, where there’s this, if we can sort of merge those two areas somehow, we can create a better experience for people and reduce the likelihood of them having to come right back to hospital.

Reuben (12:20.714)
Yeah, and of course some people have family that can probably help them with some of that stuff. The technology or just managing these different systems. But some people don’t. And certainly having that extra help is the only way it’s going to work for them.

Melissa Frew (12:26.486)

Melissa Frew (12:41.098)
Yeah, exactly. When we found that was the other huge piece of that project that we found was that we really had to consider with somebody who’s living with frailty. It’s not just them in the moment that we have to consider. We need to consider them alongside their caregivers, their support network, who are the people that they’re relying on and

Are they involved enough that they can support them in this transition home or do we need to bring in other support to help them into this transition home?

Reuben (13:17.31)
And who’s getting the data from the remote monitoring system is also another consideration. Physicians serve very jam packed workloads and busy days. Is it notifications? Is it the schedule that they’re checking in? How did that work into the overall plan?

Melissa Frew (13:43.454)
Yeah, so with the Toronto Grace team, they actually, with their remote care monitoring.

program, they actually have dedicated people that are monitoring 24-7 in the hospital and they can reach out and check in on people if they feel that there is a need to. So it is a very hands-on sort of monitoring system versus some other ones that I’ve been involved with where it’s more of a data is being tracked, potentially not.

Reuben (13:55.111)

Melissa Frew (14:14.238)
24-7 and then pings happen for doctors or something like that. But in this particular situation, it was a 24-7 monitoring and that was how they could support these very frail people in transitioning home.

Reuben (14:29.434)
Okay, excellent. And was there any particular piece of that puzzle that was especially challenging, or was it just kind of the, you know, all the different sides that made it complex?

Melissa Frew (14:43.722)
Yeah, I think one of the things that I often find is in healthcare we are very focused on data and we’re focused on tracking things that we can create.

quantitative things out of. So this is a number. I can track your heart rate. I can track how much you move in a day. I can track if you’ve got fluids in you or what you’re output in. So there are things that you can physically track, but what I often find in the work that we’re doing is it’s the qualitative pieces, those nebulous things that you can’t really track that are the things you really need to bring into an equation.

One of the things that became very highlighted through that project was it was more than just is someone safe in their home, it was about the quality of life as well. So isolation, loneliness, these were key things that needed to be considered. And so some of the recommendations that came out of that project were thinking about things like…

Can we think about friendly visitor programs? Does somebody have someone who’s checking in on them and has time to have a conversation? Is there a way that we can expand how PSWs are, like the time that they’re given to spend with people in their homes so that there’s a time for an interaction and a conversation?

It’s beyond just the numbers at this point. It’s thinking about how do we support people and not feeling isolated and lonely in their homes as well.

Reuben (16:31.326)
Yeah, and that’s where the empathy really comes in too. And anyone within, aging parent or family member that’s been through that and seeing some of those struggles firsthand, really appreciates that it isn’t just the data, how are they doing mentally and emotionally as well.

Melissa Frew (16:57.006)
Mm-hmm. And thinking about how do we…

proactively start to think about noticing those things as well, right? I mean, if we’ve got a constant contact going on, there’s people that are going into the home every day, how do they flag, well, you know what, Bob’s not looking like he’s so happy or doing so well as he’s starting to get depressed. What’s that going to lead to? And sort of trying to proactively address when there are those declines and see if there’s a way to provide a little bit more support to help somebody feel a little bit better

less isolated and maybe connect them with the community more so that their health doesn’t decline.

Reuben (17:38.831)
You mentioned the challenge of spending a lot of time designing and developing the flows and the artifacts that help visualize how the system is working. Do you have much information on the implementation side? How did it go? Are there changes that had to be made once it was put in place?

Melissa Frew (18:06.011)
So I don’t right now because that…

project is still in the works. I do know that often the way that we work is we’ll do a sort of a graduated approach where we say these are the things that you could probably fairly easily go ahead and do right away and these are the things that will probably take a little bit more effort and time to rule out so it’s more of a graduated, we don’t just say like go forth and do this whole thing. Some of the things that we recommended that they

try to address right away and I know that with Toronto Grace they were trying to create partnerships in the community so that they could implement some of these quite a bit easier but one of the things was really looking at how PSWs are

supporting people in their homes. So often a PSW is given a roster of people that they have to see in a day, and they might have to travel far between the different clients. And so their day is really stretched thin by all of the travel that they’re doing. So one of the things that we suggested, and I think that they were working towards, I don’t know how much progress they’ve had, is really thinking about how they can designate specific PSWs to communities.

The travel time is less, which means that opens up a little bit more time for them to spend longer with clients, and also thinking about upping the amount of hours a PSW could have with a client. So that opportunity to spend time and have a coffee and chat and visit, which sounds like nothing but actually can have a huge impact on someone’s day, those kinds of things might be able to be implemented.

Reuben (19:53.806)
Mm-hmm. And maybe you could tell us about the research phase a little bit. How do you begin? What’s the very beginning and understanding of a project like that look like?

Melissa Frew (20:07.582)
Yeah, so one of the things that we do here, and it’s a key piece of…

I think any design process is we do a ton of research into the space. And that’s one of the reasons why I like to sort of work on projects that are threads of one another. It allows me to bring some pieces of these silo that we work, these different silos we work in together, but it also helps me to carry forward some knowledge that was built on one project into another. But really we do a lot of.

lit review when necessary. If the project that we’re looking at is really something that’s been studied a lot, then we’re going to want to do a lit review to dig into what is the research saying about this. We often will dive into design research and see what people have done in the past in this space. We’ll also do a pretty comprehensive environment scan. So what are other people in this space doing? But we’ll look a field of that and sort of look at adjacent industries as

that’s similar but for a different population or a different sort of industry, that might be something we can draw in some learnings from. And we will continue to sort of do that scanning throughout the whole process as different insights surface so that we can start to continue, like we can continually build on that knowledge. We’ll also look at, you know, internationally what are people doing in this space?

Melissa Frew (21:43.276)
the UK or Australia or other countries and what they’re doing that are proactive in this space.

And so that’s sort of our foundation where we really start to build an understanding. We often will get a lot of materials from our clients as well in terms of research they’ve already done into this space. And so we’ll review all of that and sort of build up a key set of insights just to guide how we map out what our co-design looks like. And then often the next step from that, now that we’ve got sort of a foundational knowledge of the space, we will…often take on interviews with key people. So for instance with that project with Toronto Grace, we did a lot of interviews with people that were living with frailty that were either still in rehab, in hospital, or had recently been transitioned back to home, just to talk about what their experience was like. So when we do these interviews, they’re very much a conversation. We definitely have

points that we want to hit on, but we’re really focusing on just trying to learn more about what was your experience like, what worked really well, when were some good interactions, what were some challenging interactions, what can we learn from that. And we try to do these conversations both with people that were living with frailty, but also with their care partners or people that supported

Melissa Frew (23:19.36)
start talking to people that are providing care for these people. So we spoke with different rehab specialists, we spoke with different health care providers, we spoke with PSWs, and we really are trying to just do a sort of early assessment of what are people’s experiences looking like, and from that we can start to pinpoint what are some of the gaps and challenges and sort of

Melissa Frew (23:49.2)
journeys. Once we’ve done all of that, we’ll often do an exploratory session like a workshop session or multiple small ones depending on the population where we’ll kind of say, okay, this is what we’ve learned. This is what you people all told us.

Melissa Frew (24:08.718)
let’s talk about it a little bit further. Tell us how that resonates with you. Tell us what you think about what we heard. Did we get it right? Are there things that we’re still missing? Tell us what you see. And a lot usually will come from that of people saying, yeah, that really resonates with me, or that wasn’t my experience at all. This was more of my experience. And then from there, we can start to move on into more of a collaborative design space.

Reuben (24:36.218)
Okay, so much to dig into there. I guess I’ll keep going along those lines and ask, how do you continue to involve those groups throughout the process as you’re putting more definition around the design and the proposed changes or solutions?

Melissa Frew (24:40.339)

Melissa Frew (25:01.418)
So yeah, what we try to do, so in an ideal case, we will have even a working group that’s working with us. That doesn’t always work well because sometimes it’s really hard to…

ask people to commit that amount of time to something that they might not be being paid for. We often try to compensate people for their time, but it’s not always possible, depending on some of the rigorous research frameworks that we’re working within. So what we do instead is make sure that we are doing checkpoints all along the process. So I like to think of myself as a designer that I’m not coming up with the ideas myself. I am

are coming to and then I filter them and synthesize them into an output. So I, we as a team have multiple collaborative design sessions with different people in different formulations. So some projects will be you know two or three workshops.

The project with Toronto Grace was multiple focus groups followed by multiple workshop sessions, followed by multiple feedback sessions. So we could get input from people across the whole process and really check in constantly. Are we getting it right? How would you tweak this? How would you fix this? What is your idea? And then really in the end, also having these feedback sessions where we can say, okay, this is what we heard from everyone. This is how we mapped it out.

changes you made, how are you feeling about where we’ve landed, and that sort of that last check-in point to make sure that people are feeling like we have heard them and that we’ve included their voice in the solution. And that’s sort of the process we go through. But yeah, ideally you’d have somebody working alongside you the whole time, it’s just not always feasible.

Reuben (27:00.11)
Mm-hmm, for sure. It is a lot of time involved there, and especially working with physicians, their time is gold. And sometimes we have these meetings scheduled to do a review session, and then they’re pulled away because of some emergency. And it’s like, okay, totally understand, you have to go through some lives.

Reuben (27:26.246)
Let’s reschedule and then sometimes that can be a recurring theme. So when you have all the different user groups, then yes, that takes a lot of time to.

Melissa Frew (27:39.166)
Yeah, and I think the other thing is too, we have to be aware of the fact that working in healthcare, yeah, we’re working with providers and they are stretched so thin. It’s incredible how much these people do. I’m always in awe and so you have to be very flexible for them. But also we’re dealing with people that have been or still are patients or might be people living with frailty. And you know what? I’ve had many people call me up and be like, I’m really sorry, it’s a bad day. I can’t

And so that’s why I find no matter how we plan this out, we have to stay flexible. There are times that I’ve had people booked in for a workshop and I ended up with half the people being able to show up. So I say, okay, that’s great. I don’t necessarily book another session because maybe they’re not gonna be able to make that one either, but is there a way that I can send you the materials and maybe you can provide me your feedback? And that works too. Sometimes you have to look at what are some of the alternatives

how I can help you to add your voice to this discussion. And yes, it might not be ideal, but you have to stay flexible. And that’s something that I really learned during COVID and when we had to switch to doing all of this remotely, there are a lot of ways that people can contribute. Having everybody all in the same room at the same time is not always gonna work and that’s okay.

Reuben (29:05.418)
Yeah, asynchronous feedback can be a great way to keep a project moving and, you know, gather those inputs from other people over, you know, different mediums, whether it’s email or phone calls or, you know, when they have the time, you know, meet them where they are. And I find that’s one of the biggest differences of designing healthcare is that

Reuben (29:34.418)
the level of empathy is so much more important. Like you said, you just have to understand that, you know, it is a patient, they are ill, they might have a bad day, they’re dealing with a lot. And, you know, the bar for creating a good solution is that much higher as well, because the stakes are higher.

Melissa Frew (29:59.495)
Yeah, 100%.

Reuben (30:00.382)
We’re dealing with people’s private information and keeping that secure as well as they’re trying to provide the tools to help them have better outcomes as well.

Melissa Frew (30:13.874)
Mm-hmm, for sure. I think that is something too that I’m so aware of now that I’m working, you know, particularly in this sort of service design spaces.

We are often working with people that are maybe sometimes having really bad days and are in a really bad phase. And so you’re going to hear some really hard stories and you’re going to hear some really difficult things that people have experienced. And.

you have to, you can’t just sort of charge through, you have to make space for people to have those experiences and to be able to share them. You need to protect them a little bit so that they don’t feel vulnerable. There’s a lot at play that you need to think about in those moments. And so sometimes you have to give more time than you might if you were just testing out an app for somebody to…

you know, park or something like that. Like it’s a different experience and there’s different factors at play.

Reuben (31:18.214)
100% and this comes full circle to, you know, why it’s hard to make change in healthcare or why it takes longer than in other industries. And like you said, once you get in there, you really understand why.

Melissa Frew (31:35.09)
Yeah, for sure.

Reuben (31:38.198)
You mentioned before during your design research, looking at what other people have tried and solutions like, where do you go for that information? Do you have a network of people in other provinces or other countries that you can kind of find that information or what’s the…

Melissa Frew (32:06.282)
So yeah, it’s a bit tough. So the first thing is Google.

There’s a lot of Googling, but it’s also trying to frame, like, how are you Googling? What are you searching for? There’s definitely places that, you know, there are things that you go to naturally. So I will naturally start to look at, like, what’s happening in the UK. They’re fairly far ahead of us. They’re fairly advanced. What are they doing in this space? Mm-hmm.

Reuben (32:12.837)
Of course, yeah.

Reuben (32:36.894)
Yeah, who are the leaders in the space that are really kind of breaking new ground and of maybe a little bit ahead of where we are?

Melissa Frew (32:46.194)
Yeah, for sure. So there’s definitely looking to the leaders, but sometimes…

So I have to go incognito on Google sometimes so that it’s not like using my search history to feed me information, because you’re trying to dig into the, what is the stuff I don’t know? Like where are the things happening that I have no idea about? And I know that I’m connected to a lot of different people on different social media platforms, particularly because I found them during one environment scan. And I was like, you’re doing something interesting. I’m going to want to follow up with you potentially on future projects.

Reuben (33:02.219)

Melissa Frew (33:22.034)
So I’ve made those sort of networks so that I can keep track of what other people are doing, even if it’s not relevant to my current project. I know that there are interesting things that are happening out there in the healthcare space, but also in adjacent spaces.

where people are providing services to other people. And so I like to keep track of that as much as I can, but I’m constantly surprised by people bringing things to me. I’m like, I had no idea that was happening. That’s so cool. So yeah, it’s just a lot of digging, I find, for those kinds of things.

Reuben (33:59.51)
Yeah, and going back to the pace of change, or how these solutions are implemented, what do you think needs to change in terms of the system to maybe allow more of these solutions to come to be?

Melissa Frew (34:23.49)
That is a tough question. Tear it all down and start over. I think that one of the things I’ve come to realize over the number of years that I’ve been working in health care is we can’t tear it all down and start over. We have to work within the framework of what we have. So.

Reuben (34:28.066)
Yeah, yeah.

Melissa Frew (34:46.53)
Like it’s really hard to figure out what are the big barriers. I think the biggest thing for me, if we could start to find a way to integrate people’s data in some way so that if I go to hospital A, they’re going to know what happened at hospital B or at hospital C, particularly in an environment like Toronto, where we have so many hospitals. I literally have multiple portals that I can access information, but none of it’s the same.

Melissa Frew (35:16.724)
And if we could start to tackle that one problem, that would change so many things. Like so many projects that I’m on, they’re like, well, if we could just have one integrated record, it would support us understanding what happens across all these different transition points. If only. It seems like it’s such an easy thing to tackle. And so many times it’s been tried. There are, you know, these…

Melissa Frew (35:42.35)
networks of systems that are trying to do it, but nothing succeeded so far. So I think that to me really is a big one. If somebody could solve that problem, it would change so many things.

Reuben (35:55.686)
And I think there’s incremental improvements happening there as well. Yeah, certainly, you know, interoperability has been one of the dominant themes in healthcare technology for the last decade and will continue to be. And, you know, there are standards like FHIR and HL7 to help with that.

Melissa Frew (36:00.726)
Definitely, yeah.

Reuben (36:22.434)
But then there’s just so much fragmentation as well in terms of how different systems interpret fire. And there’s no silver bullet. So it is that constant march forward.

Melissa Frew (36:36.397)

Melissa Frew (36:41.046)
Yeah, I think when I first entered into the healthcare space in my naive day, I was like, oh, we’ll fix this and then it’ll all be great. But now that I’ve been working in this industry for a fair number of years, I can see that I can understand why things are the way they are. I…

I still have problems with how some of the decisions have been made that have led us to this point, but I understand why we are where we are. And that yeah, there’s no silver bullet. It’s going to be a bit before we actually have a discrete solution that’s going to connect all of these dots. But there’s tons of people working on it. And I suspect at some point it will finally get somewhat resolved. Probably not to the level that we all hope. But

Reuben (37:30.174)
Yeah, and that’s the exciting thing for me too, is there is a lot of room for improvement. There are so many people that are committed to improving the healthcare system, right from administrators to clinicians and politicians. And there does seem to be a fair amount of momentum and optimism around that. So while there certainly are no easy solutions,

Reuben (38:00.392)
There is a whole bunch of effort and willingness to make it happen, which is really encouraging.

Melissa Frew (38:08.746)
Yeah, definitely. There’s, I’m just constantly meeting new and interesting people that are interested in trying to solve these really complex, really messy problems. So.

Reuben (38:22.582)
Well, I’m very glad that you’re out there with your sleeves rolled up, working on these problems. I have a lot of confidence that you are making change and in a great way. So thank you so much for sharing some of your experience with us today, Melissa. And thanks for everyone for listening to the Moving Digital Health podcast.

Reuben (38:47.374)
If you enjoyed this conversation, please go to to subscribe to the MindSea Newsletter and be notified about future episodes.

Melissa Frew (38:56.706)
Thanks for having me.

Reuben (38:58.019)
Thank you.

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